{"id":14924,"date":"2025-05-10T19:07:20","date_gmt":"2025-05-10T19:07:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/?p=14924"},"modified":"2025-05-10T19:07:20","modified_gmt":"2025-05-10T19:07:20","slug":"podcast-94-millionaire-milestones-building-wealth-on-your-terms-with-sam-dogen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/?p=14924","title":{"rendered":"Podcast 94: Millionaire Milestones &#8211; Building Wealth on Your Terms with Sam Dogen"},"content":{"rendered":"<div>\n<p>In this episode of <em>Boldin Your Money<\/em>, host Steve Chen welcomes back <strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong>, the Financial Samurai, to discuss his journey from Wall Street to financial independence, and his latest book, <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a>. Sam shares hard-earned insights from his early career in finance, the emotional and financial toll of market downturns, and how he transformed a cathartic blog into a thriving income source and community. The conversation explores the power of compounding, the value of real estate in wealth-building, risk tolerance, money mindset, and why aligning financial goals with personal values is crucial. Sam also dives into how AI is shaping the future of content creation and wealth strategy, both as a tool and a hedge.<\/p>\n<p>Whether you\u2019re starting your financial journey or refining your path to early retirement, this episode offers rich takeaways on how to invest with intention, build passive income, and live a life of purpose and autonomy.<\/p>\n<p>Watch the video on our <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/5no6woE_cU8?si=2dZzqNXMfkr2wYAe\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">YouTube Channel<\/a>:<\/p>\n<p>\n  <iframe title=\"Millionaire Milestones Building Wealth on Your Terms with Sam Dogen (ep.94)\" width=\"788\" height=\"443\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/5no6woE_cU8?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><br \/>\n  <\/iframe>\n<\/p>\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-listen-now\">Listen Now<\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/the-newretirement-podcast.simplecast.com\/episodes\/sam-dogen\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Listen to the podcast on Simplecast<\/a> or right here:<\/p>\n<p>\n  <iframe height=\"200px\" width=\"80%\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless=\"\" src=\"https:\/\/player.simplecast.com\/992536b6-82e9-4cc8-915e-6d67517adc01?dark=false\" style=\"max-width: 800px; display: block; margin: 0 auto;\"><br \/>\n  <\/iframe>\n<\/p>\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-callouts\">Callouts:<\/h3>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones: Simple Steps to Seven Figures<\/a><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3RPTVGT\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Buy This, Not That: How to Spend Your Way to Wealth and Freedom<\/a> by Sam Dogen<\/p>\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-transcription\">Transcription<\/h2>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=0.24\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">00:00<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>This episode is brought to you by the Boldin Financial Planning Platform, formerly NewRetirement. Create a financial plan for free at Boldin.com. Welcome to Boldin Your Money, the podcast that emboldens you to take control of your finances and build wealth on your terms. I\u2019m your host Steve Chen, and today we have Sam Dogen joining us. He\u2019s the Financial Samurai and he\u2019s written a book, <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a>. And so we\u2019re going to get into the book, kind of what\u2019s new with Sam. Hopefully pass on some good nuggets of wisdom about how to get wealthier and also stay wealthier. So with that, Sam, welcome to our show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=48\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">00:48<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Hey, thanks for having me on again, Steve.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Che<\/strong>n (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=49.86\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">00:49<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s great to see you. Are you in San Francisco right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=52.95\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">00:52<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>In San Francisco.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=54.24\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">00:54<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Nice. So yeah, I would love to just have you recap a little bit about your journey and how you got here for folks that aren\u2019t as familiar with your path of financial independence and also how that led you to and why that led you to write this book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=69.42\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">01:09<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So I grew up overseas, six different countries because my parents were in the foreign service, came to high school in Virginia and then I went to the College of William and Mary. And then I went to work on Wall Street from 1999 to 2012. And it was a great time, pretty exhilarating, lots of highs, but also lots of lows where in 2008, 2009 things went to the crapper. And so I lost about 35 to 40% of my net worth in six months. That took 10 years to build and I was pretty despondent to solution. And I was thinking to myself, well, if you\u2019re working on Wall Street and you\u2019re not making money, are you really doing anything? And at that point, it had been 10 years and those nine 11 happened and all this stuff. And I just really started questioning what did I want to do with my life? And so ultimately I started writing about financial independence and retiring early in 2009 when Financial Samurai was born. And two years, about eight, nine months later, I found an escape and I decided to leave Wall Street behind in early 2012. And I haven\u2019t returned to a day job since.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=140.13\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">02:20<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And are you happy with that decision? Do you feel like that was the totally right decision?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=144.84\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">02:24<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s interesting because 2012 was the cusp of things going gangbusters again, right? Stock market, housing market. And so I basically left after we had rebounded from the lows of July, 2009, and I was thinking to myself, okay, we covered almost all of our losses. Thank goodness we\u2019re not going to fall into the abyss. It\u2019s kind of like in 2025, a little bit where we were down 20% in 30, 45 days. And then we recovered about half a little bit over half of the losses. Now we\u2019re thinking, oh, we\u2019re hopefully going to retest the lows and go into the abyss. And so at that point I was thinking to myself, okay, I\u2019m back to even, I was able to negotiate a severance package that paid for at least five years of living expenses. And my wife, who is three years younger than me was continuing to work and I said, well, I got a severance package. We recovered from the lows and I have something to do, which is right on Financial Samurai, which I really, really enjoyed. Every single morning I wake up and see who commented and what people\u2019s thoughts are. So I had something to do after in my retirement, so I was like, okay, let\u2019s give it a go. Worst case, things don\u2019t work out. I go back to working in finance and worst case never happened.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=221.14\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">03:41<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yep. Financial Samurai, I know you\u2019ve had a long history there. It sounds like it\u2019s producing some level of income for you as well. Has that kind of ebbed and flowed, or has it been growing the whole time?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=232.75\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">03:52<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>For the first couple of years it just made nothing, right. It was a cathartic way to make sense of all the chaos, and it was just a scary time, especially a global financial crisis because a lot of people lost a lot of money and a lot of people lost their jobs. We went through seven rounds of layoffs. And so it was just kind of like a hobby. It was a journal. But when you open yourself up, people also share their experiences, their fears, their victories, their losses, and it feels good to go through a difficult time together and get out of a difficult time. And then over time I realized, wow, okay, I remember it was October, 2011 and my wife and I were in Santorini, Greece and someone emailed me and said, Hey, I would like to put an advertisement up on Financial Samurai. I was on my iPhone and there was wifi access at the top of the crater.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=283.72\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">04:43<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>It was like 78 degrees sunny, beautiful. I was going to buy a mythos beer, it was like eight, $9. But I was like, ah. And then this guy said, oh, I\u2019ll pay you a thousand dollars to put a link up on Financial Samurai. And I was like, alright. So I did that and it took about 20 minutes and he\u2019s paid within 30 minutes. And I said, give me a couple beers, let\u2019s bring it on. And so that was a moment, a light bulb moment for me where I said, wow, okay. I built a site, it was more of a journal, but I could actually make some money, some side income to supplement the passive income that I was generating from CD income, dividend income, and semi-passive rental income. And so I had something to do. And so yes, it\u2019s grown as I\u2019ve dedicated more time to Financial Samurai and and flowed, and it\u2019s just such a great hobby, great passion of mine to do after full-time work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=334.87\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">05:34<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So it sounds like, hey, you\u2019re working in Wall Street, you\u2019re fully invested, probably in the stock market, you could lose 35%, right? And that\u2019s part of what happens. There\u2019s ups and downs. Did you change how you invested dramatically after that? It sounds like the emotional impact, that sense of like, Ugh, I\u2019ve lost a lot of my net worth, really strikes you deeply.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=355.15\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">05:55<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Oh yeah. Because if your is in money making money, when you lose money, you feel way more pain I think than the average person who gets to, let\u2019s say save children and people off the streets. That\u2019s something purposeful and meaningful. And then you don\u2019t really have to think about the money. But when you\u2019re sitting on the trading desk and you see you have two monitors, Bloomberg, and you see things collapsing, it\u2019s a very visceral experience. So my goal during my 13 years on Wall Street was to diversify as much of my income and my bonus away from equities and into real estate because I was already leveraged to the stock market through my career, my bonus, and having a job afterwards. I think I tried to be more conservative because I tried to sell our house that was a little bit too big. It was meant to be a house to raise children, but our children didn\u2019t come until later.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=407.9\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">06:47<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And so I tried to downgrade, downsize, and reduce my expenses like any logical person would do if they lost or gave up their day job income. But I think in general, because I\u2019ve been scarred so much by equities from 1997 Asian financial crisis to the dot-com bubble in 2000 to the global financial crisis that I\u2019ve always tried to keep equities to no more than 35% of my total net worth. And it\u2019s gone as low as 25%. So that\u2019s the range, 25%, 35%. Whereas real estate has always done me a good amount of good over the years that I\u2019ve owned it. Very stable income generating. I don\u2019t see the daily price movements every day. And so real estate, I\u2019ve fluctuated between 30 to 60% of my net worth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=454.88\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">07:34<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And what\u2019s the rest? Cash and equities.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=457.91\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">07:37<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>The rest is in venture capital, venture debt. So alternative investments and 2%, 3% treasury bonds and money markets, especially since they\u2019re yielding over 4.3% now, it\u2019s pretty nice. But since I left in 2012, as I look back about 98% of my net worth has been invested or to risk assets. So it\u2019s actually hasn\u2019t been as conservative as, let\u2019s say a traditional retiree who might do a 60 40 portfolio or maybe even 40% equity, 60% bonds and real estate and cash.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=494.69\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">08:14<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So do you see that changing? I mean, I would consider the real estate, I mean, it\u2019s an alternative more conservative asset and it spits off income, which is nice or spins off income. Do you see that evolving as time goes by? Are you going to take down the equities over time or change your portfolio another way?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=512.57\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">08:32<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>I only have about 30% of my net worth in equities, but it\u2019s interesting. So the latest 20% decline in the stock market with liberate sday and all that didn\u2019t feel good. Obviously losing all that money so quickly felt horrible, but I wasn\u2019t fearful as, I was more fearful in March 20, down 32% in one month because I also had a newborn. And I think I was probably more fearful of how do I protect my newborn four month old? But this time I felt a little bit more moody. I was like, this didn\u2019t have to be. It didn\u2019t have to be this way, why? And so I had to really kind of protect my mood from my wife and my children who are innocent. They have nothing to do with this. I\u2019m the one responsible for making sure the ship stays afloat so they can live their lives as happily and peacefully as they can.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=570.06\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">09:30<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>But I think over time I will probably get a little bit less aggressive. But at the same time, I don\u2019t want to own more physical real estate because managing tenants and issues is a pain as you get older. And also, it\u2019s interesting that equities are so volatile now. They snap down and snap up so quickly that I feel maybe more of my money will go into venture capital, which is a highly risky and illiquid, but you don\u2019t see it\u2019s like a duck or in the water. The duck is calm, the legs are like that, right? But I\u2019m so bullish and optimistic about private AI companies here in San Francisco that I want to gain more and more exposure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=609.66\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10:09<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>How are you getting exposure to these venture companies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=612.36\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10:12<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So I invest in closed-end funds, like the traditional venture capital funds through friends and family rounds, through connections. I\u2019ve invested about 150,000 so far in open-ended venture fund. It\u2019s called Fundrise, the Innovation Fund, which is also a sponsor. But I feel that I\u2019m just trying to get as much reasonable exposure to private AI companies living in San Francisco because hey, I don\u2019t want my kids 15 to 20 years from now saying, Hey dad, why didn\u2019t you work at an AI company or invest in private AI companies near the beginning? You could be so wealthy today. And meanwhile, I wouldn\u2019t have to worry about not finding a job because AI has taken away millions and millions of jobs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=654.42\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10:54<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, no, I think San Francisco is unique in that part of it\u2019s regional, the fact that you\u2019re here and if you know the right people, you can get into some of these deals. I mean, they are super risky, but you will meet people here or in this ecosystem that I interviewed someone in the space, he\u2019s a financial influencer, and he got access to perplexity. He was like, yeah, I ended up investing in perplexity whatever months ago. And you\u2019re like, and a bunch of other deals. And you\u2019re like, wow, that\u2019s amazing. But part of it\u2019s luck too. And there\u2019s also just such a risk. If you had to go back and do it all over again, would you do anything different or you think you nailed it in terms of the life path?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=689.91\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">11:29<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it was perfect life. No, no, of course not. I think I would\u2019ve done a couple things. One, I would\u2019ve retired a little later instead of 34. I think in retrospect, 34 is way too young. Giving up all that income and the career upside, I would\u2019ve tried to work for three to five more years. It would\u2019ve been amazing to get parental leave and get paid while having children. That is one of the big regrets. But also, I might not have ever had children because I was so focused and stressed on making money and climbing up the corporate ladder. Two, I would\u2019ve inquired about maybe relocating to a different office, perhaps Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, somewhere in Asia where I was booming. I grew up in Asia, I speak Mandarin. It would\u2019ve been a reset. New friends, new restaurants, new challenges, new clients. I think that would\u2019ve been really fun and elongated my career for probably five years.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=744.25\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">12:24<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And then finally, I think I would\u2019ve started Financial Samurai sooner 2006. I\u2019d come up with the idea in 2006, but I had just graduated from Berkeley part-time for their business school program, 60 hours a week, 20 hours of studying. I was like, okay, let\u2019s focus on the job at hand now. I\u2019ll deal this financial Samurai later. I didn\u2019t know how to start a website back then anyway. But then finally when the recession, global financial crisis came, I said, no more excuses. Let\u2019s stop putting it off. So those are the three things I would\u2019ve done differently.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=776.56\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">12:56<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I guess I have one actual final question here for your kids, and they\u2019re watching you kind of the way you\u2019re living your life, it\u2019s so different than probably most of their friends. Are they aware of it? Do you think it affects them and how they\u2019re going to think about their own lives?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=789.79\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">13:09<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, so all they see is all they know. So they know nothing different. What\u2019s interesting is that, so in 2022, I wrote, I came out with <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3RPTVGT\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Buy This, Not That<\/a>. And Boldin was a supporter. I appreciate that. At that time I was like, okay, it\u2019s I\u2019m done. Bucket list is done. Wall Street Journal bestseller. It was so hard to write, especially during the pandemic, but it gave me focus. It was kind of like a salvation to focus on something intellectually challenging to do during Lockdowns. And then due to the success of the book, my publisher portfolio Penguin said here, how about another two book deal? And I was saying to myself, oh man, that\u2019s a lot of work. Let me get back to you. But when I was thinking about it, I was just chilling in the hot tub and thinking, I was like, okay, my kids are three and five at the time.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=837.85\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">13:57<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s important to show daddy doing work and creating something from nothing. They\u2019re in academics. Writing is highly academic, creating is academic. So I said, you know what? Okay, I\u2019m going to give it a go so that at least over the next two to three years, they can see me writing, creating, editing, and then marketing so that hey, I\u2019m not just some guy sitting around or playing pickleball all day. I\u2019m actually creating something from nothing. Because how many jobs are there that your parents do that creates something from nothing? And then you can feel it tangibly and go to the bookstore and see it. And so I said, you know what? I\u2019m going to take this challenge on two book deals. It\u2019s going to take four to six years. Let\u2019s give it a go. And I think they appreciate it, especially as a dad who can spend a lot of time with them now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=884.11\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">14:44<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So let\u2019s jump into the <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a> book, and was it quicker to write this time than buy this? Not that just because of technology and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Sam Dogen (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=894.23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">14:54<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>It was quicker because I\u2019m more experienced. And two, I purposely fit within the writing guidelines of about 55,000 words with buy this, not that I went to a hundred thousand words because I thought, well, more is better, and this is my one and only book. I wanted to get as much of the information out there as possible. But I realized over time that people\u2019s attention spans are shorter nowadays. A lot of video, TikTok, whatever. And I wanted to write a very punchy book that was very actionable that could help people achieve more wealth than 93 plus percent of the American population and 99% of the world\u2019s population. So they could be more free sooner.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=933.74\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:33<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Got it. So is a million dollars. You have to have a million bucks to be on the top 7%,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=938.18\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:38<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>A million dollars? Yep. I think it\u2019s 6.5% of households in America have a million dollar net worth,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=945.5\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:45<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Including the house or just investible assets?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=948.02\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:48<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s including the house.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=949.16\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:49<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Including the house. Oh, interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=950.69\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:50<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So the median home price is about 400,000. And then if you think about how much equity there is, let\u2019s say half, 200 something<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=959.16\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">15:59<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Half,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=960.14\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">16:00<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And then the rest you can think about 800,000 plus is in investments.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen <\/strong>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=965.06\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">16:05<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. One of the things you call the book is the first $250,000 is that $250,000 of investible assets or net worth<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=972.23\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">16:12<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Investible assets. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=974.15\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">16:14<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>So I talk about in my book, one of the key milestones before getting to a million, obviously I\u2019ve got to save first a thousand, 10,000, 50,000, a hundred thousand, but 250,000 is really, I believe, the magical number where once you get to that in terms of investible assets, that\u2019s where really the compounding starts growing. And why is that? Well, in 2025, the maximum 401k employee contribution limit is 23,500. We also know that about 75% of the time, a stock market investor will make money. We also know that historically since 1926, the average return, total return for the s and p 500 is about 10%. Now, a lot of houses are saying it\u2019s going to go lower, but let\u2019s just stick with 10%. So therefore, if you get to $250,000, you could make more from your $250,000 portfolio than you can contribute in 401k, right? So when you start compounding in terms of your portfolio making more than what you can contribute to your 401k, and you double that, that\u2019s where really the momentum, the magic really comes.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1041.86\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">17:21<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And so it\u2019s almost an inevitability once you get to 250,000 if you have the proper asset allocation that you\u2019ll get to a million. But the problem is too many people wing it when it comes to their personal finances. They don\u2019t create a budget. They don\u2019t have specific goals with specific amounts and dates and ages to get there. And therefore they wake up 5, 10, 15 years later and they wonder, where did all my money go? It\u2019s like going out to the city, San Francisco, New York City, and by the time you get home, you say, where did all my money go? It\u2019s like what happened?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1074.18\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>17:54<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I do think people don\u2019t appreciate the power of compounding until they get older and start to experience it more and more for themselves. And it\u2019s kind of unfortunate when you\u2019re young is when you have more time and it will make a huge difference for you. But it\u2019s very hard for folks to get into that mindset and really see how powerful it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1090.44\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>18:10<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It is so powerful. So here\u2019s the problem, and people don\u2019t do this. Also, you go to a compound interest calculator, compounding calculator. You type in what if you have 250,000 at a 6% return and you contribute 20,000 a year, 30,000 a year for 10 2030s, and you get to huge numbers, and people look at that and they think, there\u2019s no way I\u2019m going to get there. But I\u2019m telling you, as someone who\u2019s done this since 1999, very diligently because I wanted to escape finance, wall Street, ASAP, that compounding is crazy. So just give you an example. In 2012 when I left with about a 3 million net worth, 98% of it was invest in risk assets. So if you put just a six, 7%, 7% compound rate, no contributions, that 3 million turns to 8.5 million 13 years later. And if you actually saved and contributed and had a 10% return, you\u2019re talking eight figures easily.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1146.24\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>19:06<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Has that happened for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1147.86\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>19:07<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m just doing the math here. And then the stock market has returned much greater than 10% a year on average. So we can do the math there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1155.4\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>19:15<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, yeah. Well, I know that I don\u2019t want to be too direct, but I know sometimes you do publish what\u2019s going on with your net worth and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1161.87\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>19:21<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve always just talked about 3 million in 2012, but just run the numbers folks, once you get that nut 250,000, it\u2019s an inevitability. It\u2019ll go to a million. You just need several good years. Just think about 2023 and 2024, right? 23%, 22% back to back. If you had a million that goes to 1.25 million and then it goes to 1.45 million, you\u2019re already halfway to 2 million. And that first million could have taken you 10 years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1188.81\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>19:48<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, no, I had this experience myself before liberation. I had adopted the index and chill motion. I logged into our Schwab account and I was like, holy smokes, we\u2019re up 40%. I\u2019m like, that is real money. In<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1202.1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>20:02<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Two years,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1202.97\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>20:02<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>In two years, I was like, that is way more than we have ever saved or contributed. We couldn\u2019t do it. And then of course things came back, of course, reality, right? Well, we were up, now we\u2019re up 25% or whatever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1216.68\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>20:16<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s the other key is once you\u2019ve got that money, you got to find ways to asset allocate appropriately based on your risk tolerance and goals. Because the first rule of financial independence is actually to not lose money. And the second rule is actually not to not forget the first rule like fight club. The second rule is if you want to retire early and chief fire, you cannot quit your job. You can\u2019t just say See you later. You have to figure out a way to negotiate a severance package to give you that further financial buffer to live your life. Because it actually, it\u2019s interesting. It doesn\u2019t matter how much money you have, you will always feel a little bit of strain when there\u2019s a recession, a bear market or a correction, and you\u2019re going to worry, okay, am I going to lose everything that I\u2019ve worked so hard for? It always feels that way. It always feels that way. But then the good thing is recessions, average recession lasts about 10 months and it\u2019s not forever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1269.07\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>21:09<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I want to ask you about your mindset thinking here, but I think one thing that shifted for me was I was like, is it better for me to save money in the bank or is it better to bet on everybody else in this country working really hard and getting more productive and creating value? And I was like, I should put all my money behind these other people. And that\u2019s the stock market. And that has totally worked out. Starting to do that efficiently as early as possible is what makes a big difference. But what are some of the money mindset things that you think are super important for folks is they\u2019re building towards real wealth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1301.5\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>21:41<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>So in terms of money mindset, I got one that\u2019s very important. And that is if the amount of money you\u2019re saving and investing each month doesn\u2019t hurt, you\u2019re not saving and investing enough. And this goes back to being intentional with why you\u2019re making money in the first place and what you\u2019re doing with your free cash flow and your savings. If you\u2019re not changing your habits after every month because you\u2019re saving a little bit more, investing a little bit more, you\u2019re not saving enough. The average saving rate in America is about 5%. So in other words, that takes 20 years of work to save one year of freedom. And that\u2019s crazy. That\u2019s ridiculous. No wonder why people are going to have to retire at 65 or actually never retire at all. However, if you start saving 20%, for example, that\u2019s five years of work to save one year of freedom.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1350.22\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">22:30<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And with some returns you could get that even quicker. And the thing is, there are no more excuses now because during covid, we saw the national saving rate go from sub 5% all the way up to like 30 plus percent in a matter of two months. So in other words, it tells us we can save if we want to. We\u2019re just choosing not to because we decided we want to yolo. We is totally rational and fine. But you can\u2019t go up to yourself 20 years from now and say, Hey, what were you doing? Why didn\u2019t you save and invest? Because hey, you yo load. So it is what it is. Everything is long-term rational and we make decisions based on what we think is best.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1391.83\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>23:11<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, one caveat I would say about Covid, we had two things happen. One is we were all locked inside and couldn\u2019t go spend any money. And two, they started shoveling money out the door to some folks as well, and everyone paid down their credit card debt, the savings rate went through the roof. But what was also equally incredible is as Covid kind of ended, those things reversed. We went back to our habits of spending money. Credit card debt is right back up there and we should pull the data after this. Was there any long-term impact? Yes, we can do it, but can we do it on our own with good habits?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1424.38\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>23:44<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, we can\u2019t. The long-term impact is we can\u2019t. We know we can, but we can\u2019t. So you look at the data now that the saving rate is back to 5%. And that\u2019s why investing in real estate, as I talk in <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a> for the typical person is super powerful. You get neutral real estate, so you go up and down with rent and inflation. You\u2019re not a price taker of rents as a renter and you have forced savings, you\u2019re forced to pay your mortgage or otherwise you\u2019re going to pay penalties and lose your house. And you get to ride the inflation wave because living costs is part of the inflation index. So inflation rises home, prices rise, you\u2019re paying down your mortgage over time, and then you wake up 10, 20 years later and you say, wow, I\u2019ve got a lot more home equity and my home is worth a lot more. And all I did was enjoy my life, raise my kids and have good memories. Are you kidding me? This is amazing. And thanks to the leverage, it builds way more wealth. So being neutral real estate by owning your primary residence is a key fundamental to becoming a millionaire. I believe in America at least. And if you want to get long real estate, you need to own more than one property.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1487.42\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>24:47<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, I agree with you on this. It\u2019s interesting that a lot of fire people disagree. They\u2019re like, you should rent and it is better to invest. But if you look at the data, the correlation between people that have real wealth in this country and home ownership is massive. And the opposite is true too. If you don\u2019t own a house very often you have a lot less money. And I just think it is a lot of this built in forced savings. And you also, to buy a house, you have to have good credit. You have to have saved up a down payment. It enforces habits. Before you even buy the house, you have to get really intentional about it. So I do think it ends up being a net good thing. I mean, unless if you\u2019re some fire superstar and you\u2019re like, I\u2019m just going to Andre Nader, shout out to Andre, he\u2019s done this. I think he\u2019s renting in, but building huge amount of wealth, go for it. But for a lot of folks, it\u2019s way better on the house.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1535.96\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>25:35<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a spectrum, right? The fire spectrum, there\u2019s lean fire, barista, fire coast fire, fat fire, there\u2019s even wife fire. What is wife fire? Wife fire is amazing because of equality in America, because of women having more college degrees than men, more women are becoming the breadwinners in the family. And so if you encourage your wife to work harder, save more, invest more, you can retire sooner. And so we see that huge proliferation of wife fire where men are just saying, I\u2019m retiring early, while they can do whatever they want because their wives are working and making big bucks. And so this is a huge shift since I started writing about fire in 2009, and it\u2019s whatever your flavor is, if you want to live in a van and just chill and never have kids and go be free, that\u2019s amazing. It\u2019s awesome to go and travel. But for me, after you see one Gothic church, they all look the same after a while and it\u2019s just something new. And I choose, we choose. If we\u2019re not changing, we\u2019re choosing. So I choose to live in San Francisco and I will choose to relocate to Honolulu in my traditional retirement years because these are the places I like and I have friends and family. And so if you choose a different path, that\u2019s great, but just know that one path isn\u2019t better than the other. It\u2019s what you rationally believe is the best path for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1620.75\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>27:00<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, yeah. To kind of dive this a bit further, one of the things I think in your book you talk about is aligning your financial goals with your personal values to avoid burning out. Do you have any examples of how you\u2019ve seen that materialize for folks that you know or stuff you put in the book?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1636.2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>27:16<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh yeah. For example, my personal value, well, I worked in finance, but the idea to make money was to help institutional money managers build more wealth for their clients. And after a while that didn\u2019t feel very meaningful. It was like institution, big hedge fund or money manager. And then I started telling myself, well, okay, I\u2019m trying to help the teachers retirement fund build more. Well, so that would be great to help the teachers because I believe teachers are the most valuable people in our society. They raise our children, they teach them right and wrong and so forth. Afterwards, I\u2019ve spoken to many people who in the tech community, and let\u2019s say you work at one of those huge tech companies, social media companies, and we all know that social media has been kind of harmful for children. And it\u2019s the one person I talked to, he said, I\u2019m making 500,000 to 800,000 a year, but I just don\u2019t feel good spending my life optimizing users to click on ads and watch these videos that are full of negativity to get them hooked. I think fundamentally we know that\u2019s not good. And even if you make tons of money, at some point you\u2019re going to make enough money to say, me doing this for society is probably not a net positive. We can justify our social network brings people together, but what is the ultimate goal to try to generate revenue for the business through all this negativity? So they\u2019ve changed and they said, I want to do something else more meaningful. I won\u2019t make as much money, but my soul will feel better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1726.89\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>28:46<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>For sure. We see this a lot in our community where people are, they really want to move on to the next stage of their life where they can use their human capital, their non-renew, non-renewable resource that we have into things that really matter for them. So let\u2019s talk about some of the mechanics that you bring up in your book. You talk about building multiple income streams. I think specifically you call out their seven revenue streams that millionaires have in common. Can you give a quick overview?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1753.32\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>29:13<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, there\u2019s not necessarily seven, but there\u2019s definitely more than one. And the idea is if you\u2019re flying a plane and your engine starts burning up, you\u2019re probably going to go down and die. And then we see this all the time. The longer you\u2019re around, the longer you\u2019re investing, the longer you\u2019re working, the more good and bad things happen. So I\u2019ve seen plenty of bad, plenty of good, but plenty of hubris. And the one mistake people make, and this was thinking the good times, their good income, their good promotion tracks continues to go up linearly or exponentially, God, but it never happens. The good times never last forever. And one of the keys is you need to forecast your misery. When will you be miserable and at risk in your job? And by that time, hopefully you have multiple income streams to have many engines on your plane to keep you alive and flying just in case your main engine goes down.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1811.62\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">30:11<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>And I think people understand this, but people do not actively pursue those multiple income streams. The easiest way obviously is savings money market account 4%, amazing, huge right Now other easy ways. Obviously stock market dividend paying stocks, s and p 500 yields probably like 1.5% dividend yield. You got that. Or you can go into dividend ag aristocrat stocks another way, obviously REITs, physical rental properties and a whole bunch of other ways to make income while you\u2019re making active income because the idea is hopefully your passive or semi-passive income streams can eventually match your active income streams. It\u2019s probably not going to happen, but the whole idea is at some point when there\u2019s that crossover, wow, you are totally free, but it\u2019s even before that crossover when your semi-passive and passive income can cover your basic living expenses. Wow. That is when you\u2019re technically financially independent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1868.14\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>31:08<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Two things. I love that you\u2019re forecasting your misery. I do think anticipating that things are not going to keep going is a super important idea. I did one thing that I\u2019ve definitely seen out there is many people index their spending to their high points in life, and that is a fast way to mess yourself up. And many people, this is something that\u2019s really interesting. If you look at people\u2019s career very often, they\u2019ll have a couple of years that just crush it. This happened in my life. I had a couple of years. I was like, wow, I\u2019m making twice to three times as much money as I\u2019ve ever made in my life. And that was weird. It definitely changed my mindset. I was like, I didn\u2019t think it was possible to make this much money. And this was like I had my own business and I was like, this is, by the way, small business in America, best way to go if you\u2019re thinking about it. Super tax efficient and stuff like that. But it didn\u2019t persist. And thankfully we didn\u2019t adjust our life. And then I read later that this actually happens in many people\u2019s lives, but it\u2019s something to watch out for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1923.25\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>32:03<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you, in 2007, I was a vp. I was on top of the world. I made the most money I had ever made in my then I guess eight, nine years on Wall Street. And so I did something really stupid. I decided I\u2019m going to buy a vacation property in Lake Tahoe in 2007. It was originally going for 815,000 in 2006. So I said, oh, if I can get it for under 8, 7 50, I was able to get it for seven 15,000. What a steal. I love Palisades Tahoe. It used to be called Squa. That\u2019s where I took my girlfriend now wife on our first in California. What a magical place. And then of course, the global financial crisis hit and values for these properties went down at one point about 50%. So suddenly just like that, I lost $355,000, which was a crap blown of money for me at the time. And I had this albatross on my neck for 10 years thinking what an idiot I was. And so the lesson there for me was like, oh, okay, don\u2019t extrapolate your high income good times forever because the good times never last forever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=1991.39\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>33:11<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, don\u2019t get tied. Be thoughtful about how you get tied into assets and if assets move very quickly, I think that\u2019s another big lesson. Yeah. A friend of mine, he bought a place up there in 2008. I remember saying, yeah, I got this house for 300 grand. I was like, wow. And then this was later. But yeah, eventually it does come back. I mean, I know when Covid hit Tahoe, prices doubled and people that bought pre covid at some point are like, I\u2019m great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2014.94\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>33:34<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s been a long time of waiting for that price point to get back to where I purchased it, and it was a long time to really feel okay about it. So the good thing over time is even your worst mistakes, they become a smaller percentage of your overall net worth over time. The memories sting a little bit less and the percentage bad becomes small and small to the point hopefully where you\u2019re like, okay, I can live with it. That was a life lesson. Let\u2019s move on. And so these are some of the life lessons that I\u2019ve put in <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a> to help people avoid that trap. Because the easiest way to never say, if I knew then what I know now is to simply read that book by someone who\u2019s been there before or where you\u2019re going to go. If someone has been there before and has gone through these mistakes and is honest about all the landmines they\u2019ve stepped on, I think you\u2019re going to be really appreciative.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2067.32\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>34:27<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think that books are highly undervalued, unfortunately in our society. I mean, one thing you\u2019ll see with people that are pretty successful is they read a lot. And one of the reasons books are so valuable is that people put a lot of energy and bring a lot of their experience into this thing that they\u2019re creating. And I don\u2019t have the exact data, but hey, an article might be worth X, but a book is worth 10 to a hundred x. That in terms of what you can get into it and how it\u2019s been well constructed and brings a kind of cohesive narrative to the table. So there is so much value there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2103.53\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>35:03<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, anybody who wants to write a book, give it a go because you\u2019ll soon realize how difficult it is from the idea to the formalization of order of events to the 50 plus edits you have to do and polish and polish and polish. But that\u2019s the thing though. Anybody who reads a book will realize and consume information from an author who spent at least two years, I think writing and editing it and gain that collective wisdom that the author has. And given, I think most people don\u2019t read at least books, especially nowadays with all these short form videos, it\u2019s a huge competitive advantage. It\u2019s not even funny. And that\u2019s kind of the reason why I wrote this book. If you don\u2019t want to read it, it\u2019s okay. I want my children to read it when they grow up because I want them to be financially independent and financially wise so they can make their own decision greedily, so I don\u2019t have to take care of them and have them come home when they\u2019re 25 years old. As I see so many at least young adult men here in San Francisco do where they\u2019re just living at home and they\u2019re trying to figure things out. So it\u2019s interesting. I do believe we have the power to become wealthier than the vast majority of people if we want to, but I think most of us very rationally will just do what most people do and then we\u2019ll have most people results<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2179.56\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>36:19<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>For sure. By the way, I wanted to circle back to the other thing I was going to say that I thought was really interesting, which is your orientation around income. When you measure how you\u2019re doing income versus assets, so you\u2019re kind of like, Hey, here\u2019s what it costs to live my life. I am building passive income towards that level. Most people aren\u2019t doing that. Most people are focused on the assets, myself included. It\u2019s like, what\u2019s my net worth? Not really thinking what is a spin in terms of dividends and dah, dah, dah, dah. So I think this intention is really interesting. And do you measure yourself? Do you have your own tools or spreadsheets or whatever to say, Hey, I\u2019m watching my passive income. You probably do. You have rental properties and stuff like that. But yeah, how do you frame that up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2221.65\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>37:01<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s interesting. Your thesis is, I think I disagree with that thesis. I think most people just look at income and they don\u2019t think about building net worth to generate passive income. Here\u2019s one data point. This is very fascinating. So Bloomberg came out with an article saying the middle class earning $300,000 a year is getting squeezed by the cost of private universities. And the whole analysis, and they have five authors on it, is okay, at what income level do families no longer qualify for free money grants and scholarships? And that income level was $400,000, 200,000. The schools are expecting you to pay about half the tuition, but up to 400,000, so sorry, you\u2019re too wealthy to earn any free money. This is just for the Freemont and not so much for merit aid stuff. And so I kept on reading it trying to figure out, okay, well where is the asset component to that?<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2274.09\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">37:54<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Because when you apply for FAFSA and the CSS Pro, there\u2019s a huge asset component to it where if you have X amount of assets, you also are expected to pay more of that tuition. And so I feel like in America, at least the focus too much is on income and less so on assets to generate income. And so your question to me was do I track it? Yes, I track it. I have specific age goals to get to for passive income, net worth and income when I had a day job income, then no more day job net worth. Now I have passive income, but I think it\u2019s very easy in the beginning because you just calculate what your base living expenses are, then you need to survive. And for me that in 2012 was about $60,000. If I could live off $60,000, I\u2019m eating, I\u2019m sleeping, I\u2019m sheltered, I\u2019m not living large, but I can be free and survive.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2327.92\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">38:47<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Once I got to $80,000 passive or semi passive income amount, which was off of about $3 million net worth, I said, you know what? There\u2019s no excuse not to live my life and take a risk and do what I want. And so that\u2019s what I did as time went on. So I had my first child in 2017, my second child at the end of 2019. And with inflation school healthcare expenses, which we all pay for, I don\u2019t have subsidized health insurance. I had to come up with a new number, but it\u2019s based on the budget. So the budget is what you want your ideal life to be, and then you go seek and invest in those investments that can hopefully generate that passive income.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2367.13\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>39:27<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Got it. Can you talk a little bit more about, for you it\u2019s real estate and private investing. Is there anything else that you\u2019re doing and you got some income from Financial Samurai, but you put effort into that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2380.24\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>39:40<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Financial Samurai is definitely not passive income. The articles, the newsletters, the podcasts don\u2019t write and record themselves. One thing you have to do as an investor is always compare any investment to the risk-free rate of return. And that risk-free rate of return is traditionally the 10 year bond yield, which is at about four to 4.3%. You would never invest a single dollar in any other asset if you did not believe it would generate a greater return than the risk-free rate of return. And so I\u2019m constantly looking out for that. So as interest rates rose, that risk-free rate of return increase, and actually it made living and generating passive income easier. But we all are a little bit greedy. We want more and more and more and we have to take that risk to get more. So in terms of just investing and looking at things, this is a curse and a blessing. As a personal finance writer, I\u2019m always looking at the markets, always looking at every single investment and always in my brain thinking this is a good investment, bad investment, and how do I figure things out? But it\u2019s bad because when things are rocky and volatile, you mentally get stung over and over again. You can\u2019t help yourself. You\u2019re like a moth to a flame, always looking at the markets, futures, everything. So there\u2019s pros and cons there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2456.26\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>40:56<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I want to ask a couple more questions before I wrap up, but just one is on inflation, you talk about stopping ferrying inflation and the other is ways to recession proof your portfolio.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2468.92\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>41:08<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>So the key to combating inflation is to ride inflation, you want to own assets that inflate with inflation or that are part of the inflation index. So those assets clearly are real estate stocks. Yeah, real estate and stocks, that\u2019s bread and butter right there. If you think about stocks, they\u2019re valued based on a discounted free cashflow model. How much companies are generating the future, their profits, their revenue, whatever the multiple is, right? At the end of the day, it\u2019s about income, cashflow, earnings generation. And so this income, the component and earnings generally rise because prices they charge. Companies charge increase over time to not only cover the cost of inflation, but to make a profit above the rate of inflation. You can\u2019t do it too much or you might be seen as price gouging or whatever. But investing in companies is by definition, you\u2019re riding inflation.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2522.27\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">42:02<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>Real estate by definition is part of the inflation component. Real estate inflation\u2019s with inflation, so you want to get neutral or ride inflation. You don\u2019t want to rent forever because just like shorting the stock market forever is a bad idea. Renting forever is a bad idea, very equal logical analysis, but a lot of people will fight me on that and whatever, you can do whatever you want. So that\u2019s mainly it. In terms of inflation, where I see inflation going, inflation has been coming down since the late 1980s. If you look at the long-term chart for the past 40 years, it\u2019s been going down. There\u2019s been blips up, but it generally goes down and I believe that we will continue to be in a long-term downward or low inflation environment. Why? Because the world is smaller thanks to technology. The central banks around the world are more coordinated. They talk to each other, Hey, what are we going to do? And there\u2019s lessons learned from previous periods of inflation that central bankers can use to make it become more manageable. So I don\u2019t believe we\u2019re going through this permanently higher inflation and high interest rate environment for the future.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2592.65\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>43:12<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And I mean rates have also been, the yields on treasuries and stuff have generally been declining as well. Now they\u2019re back elevated. So do you think that they\u2019ll also come back down?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2604.74\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>43:24<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yes, absolutely. Oh, sorry. I won\u2019t say absolutely. I\u2019ll say with 80% probability we\u2019ll have short-term spikes, but it\u2019s long-term, 10 year bond yield at 4% or lower is definitely in the cards. And so for people worried about crazy inflation, inflation interest rates jacking up the value of your real estate or your stocks for that matter, I\u2019m not too concerned about it. We went through the most extraordinary period during covid with multiple trillions getting pumped into the economy. That takes time to weed itself out. And it\u2019s happening because the saving rate is only 5%, right? So it\u2019s happening. It just takes time. But we\u2019re going to get back to long-term trend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2648.12\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>44:08<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And how about for at times like this, what are you doing yourself and what would you advise listeners for recession proofing and maybe volatility insulating their portfolios or just accept it and deal with it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2662.37\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>44:22<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, I think you have to diversify. You can be a hundred percent stocks and you can go up down 20%. You can see your stock values overnight. And if you\u2019re good with that, you\u2019re good with that. What I say is you need to understand the history of bear markets. Okay, so the bear market, average downturn, drawdown, whatever you want to call it, is about 35%. So if you are investing in stocks, a hundred percent stock portfolio, you should expect a 35% drawdown every five to seven years. And if you\u2019re okay with that, great. But if you\u2019re not okay with that, then you have to diversify into more stable assets. And one way to measure your true risk tolerance is to calculate your hopefully paper money losses divided by your gross monthly income, and you\u2019ll come up with a number and that number is how many months of work you need to work to make up for your hopefully temporary paper losses. I formulated this chart in one of my articles. You can Google it. But the idea is, I believe if you are willing to spend more than 36 months of your life trying to make up for your losses, you have high risk tolerance. But if you aren\u2019t, and then you do the calculations on what if you did lose 35% and it\u2019s way more than what your number is? For me, my maximum number limit is like 12 to 18. Every single month is so precious, then I would adjust accordingly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2746.17\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>45:46<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s interesting. That\u2019s a really interesting way to do that. We\u2019ll have to think about surfacing that kind of metric Inside of our software,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2752.95\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>45:52<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This is very important because what\u2019s more valuable time or money, when you have no money, money is more valuable. But as you get older and older, that value of time increases and it becomes priceless at the end. I feel you should always equate to your potential loss to how much time you must give up to grind back to get those losses back. And that number should get lower over time since you have less time and hopefully more money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2779.65\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>46:19<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a great way to look at it and it\u2019s great framing to kind help people think through that. You mentioned AI earlier that you\u2019re really bullish on it given ai and given that you\u2019re a content creator and you run Financial Samurai, are you seeing a positive and negative impact? I know there\u2019s ai, SEO and stuff like that, that\u2019s like people are getting the questions answered, perplexity or wherever it is. What\u2019s the impact that you\u2019re seeing for your business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2804.55\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>46:44<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think there\u2019s definitely pros and cons. For me, I like to think about the end is near. I think again, nothing good lasts forever. So I can see a world where there\u2019s no more financial Samurai, there\u2019s no more people wanting to find knowledge from someone who has the experience, the lived experience, and there\u2019s a desire to just get quick answers from a robot, right? Ai. And so when I think about that, I think it\u2019s actually quite relieving, kind of peaceful. It\u2019s not easy writing three times a week for 15 years in a row. And if AI can do that, that\u2019s pretty cool. AI has supplanted my dad\u2019s job as the editor in chief of Financial Samurai for the past year. Now I can quickly come up with my thoughts and AI will edit it for me, which is amazing. So it saved him time. He\u2019s lost some purpose, but I hope he\u2019s okay in finding different purposes.<\/p>\n<p>(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2858.47\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">47:38<\/a>):<\/p>\n<p>It saved my wife time, which is great, so we can spend more time with our children. And then I think about AI as, okay, maybe I can just have the financial Samurai AI chatbot that uses the archive of 2,500 plus articles to answer the questions that people have based on my experiences and my expertise and wisdom. And I think that\u2019s going to be obvious where I\u2019m going to put that chatbot at the top of Financial Samurai one day once it\u2019s easily and freely available, and I think it is in some cases. And then I\u2019ll just go from there. Because in terms of I guess writing about personal finance, what\u2019s interesting about Financial Samurai is that everything I write, it\u2019s about firsthand experience, right? There\u2019s stories involved. This is not SEO stuff. I don\u2019t think about SEO, I don\u2019t hire staff writers, but if I can get an AI agent to be me and help me write and share these experiences and customize it, I think that would be incredible. Now, whether the business will make money or not, it\u2019s kind of a secondary thing. I just want it to live long enough to help enough people make enough money so they can do more of what they want.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2920.96\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>48:40<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>AI is definitely impacting companies that rely on traffic, sucking up the data and digesting it and spinning it out for people. And I use tools like perplexity all the time myself, and it\u2019s amazing. It goes out and searches the web and compiles stuff and references things. All that stuff\u2019s amazing, but what you\u2019re describing AI can\u2019t do. AI is not going to have your lived experience, your innovative thoughts and whatnot, and then create that. That\u2019s you. Now, you can write that down quicker and share it, but this is where I don\u2019t think humans are going away because we\u2019re still having experiences that other people can learn from bring our own innovation. I do think it\u2019s going to be way more efficient, but I think humans are going to stay in the loop, but an AI will be a tool. It\u2019ll help us go faster and hopefully people won\u2019t have to work as hard and we\u2019ll have a better standard of living.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=2972.32\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>49:32<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s a derivative agent. So you can go to the source, Sam Dogan at Financial Samurai, or you can go through AI which draws from the source and comes up. So it\u2019s whatever you want to do. And the funny thing, again, as an investor is the more AI destroys Financial Samurai, let\u2019s just call it absolute destruction, steals the content, doesn\u2019t attribute all that amazing stuff. Open AI goes from nonprofit, raises a lot of money to profit, to making a lot of money. Haha, I got you guys. It\u2019s an amazing world. The more it destroys creators, actually the better in the sense if you\u2019re an investor and that\u2019s how you hedge. So I\u2019m investing, I\u2019m investing in my destruction and I\u2019m going to hedge, right? So in 15, 20 years, if AI causes millions of people who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on college educations become unemployed or just work in the trades, which is great, then AI investments today will be very, very profitable. And if AI turns out to be overhyped, hopefully most of our children will be able to get fine jobs and have dignity and be financially independent on their own. So it\u2019s a win-win, but you have to invest.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=3037.85\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>50:37<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a diversification risk play for you. I totally get that. It\u2019ll be interesting to see if you shut yourself, if you\u2019re like, okay, guess what? I\u2019m not writing. I\u2019m just slapping an AI chat bott. It\u2019s going to rag up. It\u2019ll know everything till today. And then it kind of stops there. And you already see this in the AI chat bots, it\u2019s like, well, some of them are real time now. For a while they were like, oh, it only knows up until 2021. And then it doesn\u2019t know anything else past that. So it\u2019ll be interesting to see, but it\u2019s definitely playing out. Alright, well look, Sam, this is great. People should definitely go check out The <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a> book and Financial Samurai. We\u2019ll link to that stuff and appreciate you coming on our show. Any final thoughts for our audience?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=3073.55\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>51:13<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No. At the end of the day, everything is rational, longterm. If you want to build wealth, you\u2019re going to take action to do so. And if you don\u2019t want to build wealth and have a great life now and spend your money, do that as well. Just rationally, don\u2019t complain why you aren\u2019t wealthier while you lived an amazing life. So it\u2019s about what you want and go after what you want because nobody cares more about your money and your life than you, so go for it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Steve Chen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=3100.7\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>51:40<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, as I get older too, it\u2019s was like, I like working. I don\u2019t care if I have to keep working for a long time, but now I\u2019m like, if I had made smarter choices when I was younger, I\u2019d probably be, I mean, I could be financially independent also if I decided to leave the area, but I do think that you should anticipate that your life will change. How you think about your life now is not going to be how you think about your life in the future. And you can get that perspective from books or talking to people that are older than you that have this lived experience and hopefully you appreciate that. Okay. Well look, Sam, this was great. Appreciate your time. It\u2019s great to see you. I hope a <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3FxRh5y\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Millionaire Milestones<\/a> does great as well as by this, not that, and I hope you keep writing Financial Samurai, so thanks for coming on the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Sam Dogen (<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.rev.com\/app\/transcript\/NjgxYThjZmMxZGNjYWYwMzc3YTFmYzEzYVNHYU9IQndBblRv\/o\/VEMwODU1OTU4Nzcx?ts=3142.13\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>52:22<\/strong><\/a><strong>):<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Alright, thanks Steve. I\u2019ll see you all later and if you want to get in touch, just go to Financial Samurai and you can just leave a comment on any one of the 2000 plus articles and I\u2019ll check it out and I\u2019ll respond.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.boldin.com\/retirement\/podcast-94-millionaire-milestones-building-wealth-on-your-terms-sam-dogen\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Source link <\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of Boldin Your Money, host Steve Chen welcomes back Sam Dogen, the Financial Samurai, to discuss his journey from Wall Street to financial independence, and his latest book, Millionaire Milestones. Sam shares hard-earned insights from his early career in finance, the emotional and financial toll of market downturns, and how he transformed<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":14926,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"rank_math_lock_modified_date":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[348],"tags":[2329,6126,6125,1165,3149,616,1756,1020],"class_list":{"0":"post-14924","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-retirement","8":"tag-building","9":"tag-dogen","10":"tag-milestones","11":"tag-millionaire","12":"tag-podcast","13":"tag-sam","14":"tag-terms","15":"tag-wealth"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14924","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=14924"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14924\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/14926"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=14924"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=14924"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/finderica.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=14924"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}